Paul and the "Weak"
Mark Nanos' latest essay about the "weak" in Corinth is that rare example of thinking outside the box which makes us wonder, "Gee, why didn't we see this before?" It's the essay I've been waiting for since the author's The Mystery of Romans accomplished the same thing over a decade ago.
In I Cor 8:1-11 Paul tells his "knowledgeable" converts to avoid idol food on account of the "weak". Who are the "weak"? Denying the near universal assumption that they are Christian -- insecure Christians who are unable to treat idol food as meaningless and eat it with a clean conscience -- Nanos demonstrates, with enviable ease, that they are non-Christian -- pagans who eat idol food without any qualms.
"I propose that the impaired [weak] are polytheist idolaters with whom the Christ-believers in Corinth interact, even those to whom they are proclaiming the gospel message. The impaired [weak] are not resistant to eating idol food; rather, they have always eaten idol food as an act of religious significance. After all, is it not more logical to suppose that Christ-believers "know" the truth about idols now, by definition, being Christ-believers? In what sense have they become Christ-believers if not by confessing the truth of the One, thus turning from the truth they had supposed before about idols and other gods and lords?... They are not troubled by eating idol food; that is what they do and have always done as a matter of course, 'until now'... Paul's concern is not that the impaired [weak] will revert to idolatry, but that they will never turn away from it." (pp 12-13)That makes sense, for if these potential converts were to see Christians eating idol food, their sensibilities would be confirmed instead of challenged to be wrong (p 14), and they would end up "ruined" (I Cor 8:11). They would fail to understand that Christianity makes exclusivist claims for God and Christ, and perhaps get the idea that they could add the Jewish God to their pantheon. Alternatively, they might not take Christians seriously, supposing that its adherents were hypocrites who eat idol food to appease gods they otherwise disdain as non-existent or inferior (see pp 15-17).
Thus our sitz im leben: the weak ate idol food without reservation (that's what idolaters do), and the knowledgeable didn't eat it -- though they were now wondering if it would be acceptable, "most likely for a host of the socio-economic and psychological reasons associated with remaining 'in the world'" (pp 18-19). Paul's response was an emphatic "no" for the above reasons. So why have commentators always assumed that the weak were fellow Christian believers insecure in their faith?
I can think of three reasons. Nanos lights on two of them, and we'll return to a third at the end. (1) Interpreters have been driven by over-arching needs for a Pauline Christianity which trumps "Jewish" Christianities (see p 9). I agree that the latter shouldn't be used as a foil in our historical reconstructions (one isn't inherently better than the other), though unlike Nanos, I do think Paul's version of the Christ-faith was at odds with more traditionally Jewish versions being promoted by the pillars. (2) An understandably misleading factor is the text at I Cor 8:11-12, where Paul speaks of the weak as "brothers" and "family". This has lead some translators of modern bibles to replace "brothers" with "believers" (like the NRSV), thus perpetuating the notion that the weak were Christian insiders.
Nanos demolishes this supposition, showing that the use of "brothers" doesn't point to Christian believers in this particular context. First of all, we need to remember that Paul believed Christ died for the "weak" and "ungodly" who didn't yet believe in him (Rom 5:6-10) (pp 20-21). Secondly, fictive kinship language, while usually applied to insiders, also reached across group boundaries in the ancient Mediterranean. For instance, the writer of I Maccabees referred to the bond between the Judeans and Spartans (I Macc 11:30; 12:10,17), and Philo universalized brotherhood (Q and A on Gen 2:60) (pp 26-27).
But thirdly, and most conclusively, Paul's instructions regarding Christian brothers in I Cor 5:9-12 makes plain that idolatrous sensibilities are not to be accommodated in the church. Only outsiders can be so accommodated:
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons -- not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and the robbers, or idolaters, since you would then need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? God will judge those outside. Drive out the wicked person from among you." (I Cor 5:9-13)There it is, under our noses. Since Christian idolaters should be expelled from the assembly, the advice of I Cor 8 cannot apply to them. It must apply to pagans who stand as potential converts. In the company of such polytheists the Corinthians should neither be judgmental ("only God judges those outside") nor exercise their freedoms indiscriminately. Nanos is right:
"The accommodation Paul expresses in chapter 8 toward the [weak] corresponds to the position he champions in chapter 5 toward polytheists, not toward fellow Christ-believers." (p 31)
Stop now, and flash back a dozen years when a book called The Mystery of Romans appeared out of nowhere, written by an unknown scholar who was about to show the world he meant business. Knowing that the "mystery" of Romans hinged on Paul's concern for unbelieving Israel (Rom 11), Nanos saw Rom 14-15 as the practical application of this. The "weak in faith" in Rome were non-Christian Jews, weak because they lacked faith in Christ, not because they followed the law. The language of Rom 14-15 couldn't be clearer: those who observed purity laws, fasting, and sabbath should be "fully convinced in their own minds what is right" (Rom 14:5) and should continue "observing sabbath in honor of the Lord" (Rom 14:6a) and "abstaining from meat in honor of the Lord" (Rom 14:6b). Paul in fact wanted the (Gentile) Roman Christians to accommodate unbelieving Jews as a means of attracting them to Christianity: "If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love" (Rom. 14:15). "It is good not to eat meat, or drink wine, or do anything that causes your brother to stumble" (Rom. 14:21). Note again the unusual application of "brother" for an unbeliever. Paul wanted the strong to accommodate the weak and "not please themselves" (Rom. 15:1), so that, hopefully, more Jews would embrace Christianity and both groups could worship as "one voice" (Rom. 15:5-6). The Jews weren't weak in practice or opinions, in Paul's view, but in faith -- refusing to believe that Israel's redeemer had arrived and inaugurated the messianic age.
And at this point Nanos played a monster hand. He went back to Paul's theology (Rom 2-11) to find confirmation of his interpretation, and found it in Rom 4:19-25:
"Abraham did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was already as good as dead (for he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. Therefore his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now the words, 'it was reckoned to him', were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification." (Rom 4:19-25)There again, under our noses. Being weak in faith, for Paul, had nothing to do with Torah-observance (the subject of Rom 3:21-4:17) but rather a doubt in God's ability to give life to the dead. Just as Abraham was strong for believing that Isaac would be born from a dead womb, the Romans are strong for believing that Jesus was raised from a dead corpse. The strong are believers, the weak unbelievers, by definition.
Fast-forward back to the present, where we just saw Nanos play another power hand with I Cor 5:9-13. That passage confirms what I Cor 8 implies (as Rom 4:18-25 does for Rom 14-15). The knowledgeable are Christian, the weak non-Christian, and the former should cater to the sensibilities of the latter (and expel their own kind from the assembly). After all, Paul wanted to convert as many people as possible before the world's end (and subsequently keep the faithful under an iron fist). He didn't want Christians broadcasting their freedoms. Eating idol food would cause confusion among potential converts, just as eating meat alienated the heirs of Israel. It was inherently dangerous besides for involving a relationship with evil forces (in the hands of pagans) that should be avoided (I Cor 10:14-22) (see pp 18-19). Outsiders should be massaged, insiders held to unbending standards.
Perhaps it is this conclusion, more than anything else, which makes commentators resist the idea that the weak were pagans (my third reason). That Paul had a dual standard -- the lenient one reserved for unbelievers -- could arouse unease. But as Nanos points out, Paul is candid about his willingness to become "all things to all men" in order to save them (I Cor 9:19-23). Deception was his hallmark. I doubt Nanos would care for putting it that way, but another Mark, Mark Given, sees the truth of it: Paul thought people must be "deceived for their own good". That's why he acted like a chameleon, to the Jew arguing like a Jew, to the Gentile like a lawless pagan, and to the polytheist like one with idolatrous sensibilities (p 32).
It must also chafe Christian readers that Paul insists on not judging outsiders (leaving that to God), while coming down so hard on the faithful (I Cor 5:9-13). But again, that's a staple of zealous charismatics: put on a smooth front to the outside world, make conversion appealing, then show your true colors on the inside. I don't intend that as a criticism (like any pastor, Paul had to keep his flock in line), just an observation which when appreciated allows us to read the identity of the weak properly.
Nanos has shown that in two letters Paul urged Christians to forsake their freedoms in the company of outsiders. For the Romans that meant accommodating Jewish sensibilities (abstaining from meat) in hopes that unbelievers would see Christianity compatible with their Israelite heritage. For the Corinthians it meant acting (abstaining from idol food) so that pagans wouldn't misunderstand Christianity as a syncrestic religion -- or perceive its followers as hypocrites -- and compromise monotheism. Unlike Nanos, I believe these were largely deceptive strategies. The apostle really believed that the law was finished, and the best it ever had to offer was available by another route (the spirit); that pagan deities had nothing on the One, regardless of what one ate. At the same time, they were realistic strategies and commendable, perhaps, for that reason alone.

9 Comments:
This is a good article, but I'm afraid I have to dissent on some places. {s}
Yes, I agree that in 1 Cor 8, the "weak" are the unbelieving polytheists, who shouldn't see Christians eating meat in a context where it might be considered joining in pagan worship. That's clear enough; and I've always thought that this was the case.
If some scholars wonder whether the "weak" are actually Christians in that passage, though, it's probably because the "weak" in Romans 14, on a topic that looks similar on the face of it, clearly have to be Christians.
The general principles involved can be easily applied to the fractiousness Paul was attempting to nullify earlier in the Roman epistle, with Gentile and Jewish Christians sniping at one another. (Not that Paul isn't also talking about non-Christian Jews in the first half of Romans, just as he occasionally talks about pagan Gentiles; there are multiple topics being woven together.) However, there is no way I know of that 14:2 can possibly be talking about non-Christian Judeans: "One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only." (NASV; other translations follow suit. The Greek is literally "the infirm one is eating greens".) When did vegetarianism start being a signifier of Judaism!!? Just as clearly the "weak" here aren't the pagan meat eaters of 1 Cor 8, to say the least. {g}
But the reference to vegetarianism is taken as an archetypal example by Paul, and is used as such in this chapter, to return to his largescale theme from Romans 1-11: his congregation is made up of disparate elements who need to stop cutting one another down. True, Paul considers the one who knows that all things are morally clean to eat, to be stronger in his faith; nevertheless the one who eats everything should not disparage the one who does not eat everything (typified by the vegetarian, but it could apply more broadly to Jews with dietary restrictions), and the one who does not eat should not disparage the one who does: for God has accepted them both as servants. (verse 3)
Following this admonition to both parties (which self-critically must include himself, as he knows he is strong in his faith for knowing that he can eat anything without morally sinning), Paul continues with an extension of the principle: it isn't the place of either party to judge the other party, because both parties belong to God: "To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand!"
Likewise, one man regards one day as special; another regards all days as special. Clearly this has reference to worship, and might be considered a difference between Jew and Gentile, but he's still talking about groups within his own congregation. (He might even be talking about those who worship now on Sunday, compared to those who worship every morning, cf the letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan.) Each man should walk according to the best he sees; those who observe one day do so for the Lord, and he who eats does so for the Lord; similarly he who does not eat also does so for the Lord--and all give thanks to God alike. (verses 4-6ff.)
Again, verse 14 and following makes it very clear that Paul is addressing inter-Christian disputes; and moreover is doing so in a self-critical manner. He knows and is convinced in the Lord Jesus that no food is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks some food is unclean, that food might as well be unclean: someone who tries to simply force him to eat the food will be seducing him into sin! "All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats with offense." It would be better then for those who are stronger to give up meat and wine altogether, rather than to lead the weaker into stumbling over what they believe is a sin. "The faith which you have, have according to yourself [or as your own conviction] before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves; but he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because this (his eating) is not from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin."
The upshot is that Paul exhorts his readers: "So then, let us pursue the things that make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food!"
In the following chapter, Paul repeats this theme again: "Now may the God Who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to (or in regard to) Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us (or you-all in some manuscripts) to the glory of God." (15:5-7)
There is simply no way that these passages can be primarily about how not to give a misleading example to non-Christian Jews or Gentiles (except tacitly insofar as fractiousness in the assembly is a bad example. {s}) These passages are about infighting in Paul's congregation, probably (as earlier) between Jew and Gentile, but it's against all kinds of similar infighting. (Thus the reference to vegetarianism, for example.)
Other than that, it was a good article. {g} Thanks for posting it up.
JRP
Hi Jason,
Unfortunately, you don't address Rom 4:18-25, the only place in the theology of Rom 2-11 where Paul explains what "strong in faith" and "weak in faith" really mean. The terms are all about belief in Christ, and nothing about dietary works. The weak, of course, do have stricter dietary restrictions than the strong, but that's not what makes them weak. Paul is clear about this when he encourages the weak to abstain from meat and wine, and observe their holy days.
Paul is concerned that Gentile arrogance will cause Judean unbelievers to continue stumbling (Rom 11:11-12 ~ Rom 14:13,21). I can't read Rom 14-15 as anything but the practical outworking of Rom 11. Note too that chapters 14-15 trail 12-13, which deal with proper behavior vis-à-vis the outside world; the weak are thus likewise outsiders: unbelieving Judeans.
Thanks for your analysis. You certainly speak for many in rejecting Nanos' treatment of Rom 14-15.
Loren,
Yes, I know what it says in Rom 4:19-25; and I saw your report of how Nanos makes use of it in his argument concerning 1 Cor 8--though I don’t consider ref to Rom 4:19-25 to be necessary to understanding 1 Cor 8 to be talking about non-Christians; the immediate contexts are clearly about pagans there anyway.
My point was that scholars might have become confused about the otherwise obvious reference to pagans in 1 Cor 8, because (a) the Rom 14 material is equally obviously about reconciling factions within Paul’s Christian congregation; and (b) most commentators would be understandably nervous about Paul treating the non-Christian Gentiles (of all people) as brothers, potentially or otherwise. The language and topics in the two chapters (1 Cor 8 and Rom 14) are superficially similar; and the obvious contextual references in Rom 14 which exclude the topic being about relations between believers and non-believers, probably make it tempting to try to foist the same inter-Christian relationship-meaning over onto the 1 Cor 8 passage--where again the obvious immediate contextual references really cannot allow such a foisting. But it would feel safer, for most commentators, to have 1 Cor 8 be about inter-Christian relations. (Though they haven’t read Rom 14 closely enough if they think it’s safe; it’s a highly daring piece of theological charity.)
The same error shouldn’t be applied to Rom 14, though. Even if Paul was supposed to be making a systematic term definition back in chapter 4 (which I doubt--I think his usage there works just fine in conjunction with inter-Christian relationships in Rom 14), the actual and numerous details of Rom 14, taken in conjunctive context, simply kill dead any attempt at identifying the “weak” there as non-Christians. The only way to make that work would be to foist a systematic term meaning onto the text and ignore the many immediate contexts, quoting verse-portions piecemeal as “examples”.
{{The terms are all about belief in Christ, and nothing about dietary works.}}
Neither was my dissertation about dietary works; nor was I claiming in my essay there that Rom 14 is primarily about dietary works. I was claiming that Rom 14 is primarily about factional infighting within Paul’s congregation, and Paul is borrowing a couple of examples (mostly to do with dietary restrictions, including one that cannot possibly be indicative of non-Christian Judaism, but also including debates about the proper day of worship--debates we know from other sources that early Christians must have been having) in order to explain that his people need to stop disparaging one another over these things.
{{The weak, of course, do have stricter dietary restrictions than the strong, but that's not what makes them weak.}}
Of course not; neither did I argue that Paul was trying to say that in Rom 14.
{{Paul is clear about this when he encourages the weak to abstain from meat and wine, and observe their holy days.}}
Yes, though also: (a) he never claims the “weak” are the ones observing more than one holy day a week (one could suppose that by a parallel, perhaps) and (b) he does claim that one party was considering all days of the week to be holy. Again, that wouldn’t be a signifier of non-Christian Judaism. It is however what we hear of some early Christians doing: worshipping on every day, early in the morning, not only on Sunday (as the new Sabbath observance day). Both modes were in honor of the Resurrection (the former apparently connecting it symbolically with sunrise).
More importantly, though, you’ve skipped over (though I did not {g}) what Paul was specifically encouraging those who worship differently to be doing: honoring the Lord Jesus. His whole position hangs on insisting on a recognition that these “weak” are trying to honor Jesus, too, by their actions--and honoring Him in fashions reserved for God, of course. Non-Christian Jews certainly would not be doing that!
{{Paul is concerned that Gentile arrogance will cause Judean unbelievers to continue stumbling}}
This is certainly not the case for one of your prooftext verses (14:13), where the full verse reads: “Therefore let us not be judging one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.” This is intergroup language; he’s talking about Jewish and Gentile Christians in his congregation (though with application to other dissension groups within the congregation, too, such as regarding the vegetarianism.)
Verse 21 has no reference to the objects, so it cannot be used as reference that Paul is talking about Judean unbelievers--that’s a meaning you’re importing from elsewhere.
Rom 11:11-12 is certainly talking about those Jews who have stumbled over the stumbling stone (i.e. over Christ), therefore non-Christian Jews--from whom his Jewish portion of the Roman congregation has come (though he’s not addressing them in this chapter). By the stumbling and transgression of a portion of the Jews, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous. Yet Paul just as obviously does have hope for the Judean non-Christians, that they will be saved in the end. (“They did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!... Now if their transgression be riches for the world, and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!”)
This is not about Gentile arrogance causing Judaen unbelievers to continue stumbling--they weren’t stumbling over Gentile arrogance in the first place, they were stumbling over Christ! It is however about Gentile inclusion and salvation provoking the non-believing Jews to jealousy; and indeed Paul writes shortly afterward that inasmuch as he is an apostle to Gentiles, he shouts out about that ministry in order to provoke his own countrymen to jealousy as well as to save some of them. (But Paul does not see a final limit to the “some”.) Whatever else this is, it isn’t a warning against Gentile arrogance causing Jewish unbelievers to keep stumbling!
That being said, Paul does have something nearby to say, as a warning about Gentiles puffing themselves up. And it’s a pretty damned strong warning (one might say {s!}); but you’ve missed the verses where the actual warning against Gentile arrogance takes place in chapter 11. That warning begins at verse 17 until at least 24 (though it might be said to continue on into verse 32). And it’s a warning that the Gentiles are being grafted into Israel, and if they get uppity about this they can be grafted back out again!--moreover, they had better not disparage those branches grafted out, because what God has grafted out He can and indeed will graft back in again. That means Paul sees his Roman congregation as being ideally Jewish; and although in this chapter he is mainly warning his Gentile believers not to disparage Jewish non-believers, the gist of previous chapters has been to engage Jewish/Gentile fractiousness among his congregation, as well as to engage those parties’ fractiousness against Jews and Gentiles outside the congregation.
Much of the point to Rom 9, to give one important example, is to get his Jewish and Gentile congregational elements to stop blaming each other about persecutions one or another group has been involved in back before they were Christians--which again fits the main theme of chapter 11. Yeah, Gentiles have persecuted Jews, but that was done by God’s plan and you shouldn’t hold a grudge for it now; otherwise you’re being rebellious like Jonah. (Paul is making tacit reference in chpt 9 to a rabbinic tradition explaining why Ninevah was so ready to repent at the ridiculously ineptly minimal preaching of a man who didn’t even want them to be saved; a tradition involving the final repentence and salvation of the Mosaic pharoah!) Yeah, the Jews killed Christ, but that was for your benefit, and they’ll all be saved in the end, just as all the Gentiles will--but you’d better not be ungrateful about this, or you’re going to be in for some cleaning and you won’t like it! (The branch grafting analogy is closely connected with the agricultural verb for cleaning typically translated “punishment” at the end of the judgment of the sheep and the goats, not incidentally.) You’re in Israel now by grace, but you can be put outside again, just as those whom God has put outside are destined to be included again.
(In case that seems to put Jewish members at a premium, Paul has some strong denunciations of Judaisers earlier in Romans, too. {g} Including in the chapter 4 reference you quoted, which naturally has application to Jewish religious behavior outside Christianity, too. But that isn’t what he’s talking about in chapter 11; he’s done that already.)
{{I can't read Rom 14-15 as anything but the practical outworking of Rom 11.}}
Certainly; and I also read it as a practical outworking of all the preceding chapters. But then, I recognize that in some of that preceding material, Paul is clearly talking about inter-congregation spatting. For example:
{{Note too that chapters 14-15 trail 12-13, which deal with proper behavior vis-à-vis the outside world; the weak are thus likewise outsiders}}
Well, the first thing I notice in chapter 12 (because it’s the first topic mentioned) is Paul admonishing each of his readers not to think too highly of himself but to function as one body of Christ, be devoted to one another in practicing spiritual gifts as Christians, serving the Lord, being of the same mind with one another, not being haughty in mind toward one another, etc., etc. There’s some mention of behaving in relation to the outside world, but pretty much all of chapter 12 is dedicated to interChristian relations. Chapter 13, on the other hand, is devoted primarily to relations outside the church, especially with the government, but also with society in general. (Which would absolutely have to be the Roman government; in fact I couldn’t run across any even ambiguous reference to unbelieving Jews in chp 13, though naturally they’d be included in the general “neighbor” language.) Paul in that case is certainly using “one another” in regard to non-Christian “neighbors”.
Nevertheless: the topic goes back to inter-Christian disputation in chapter 14, and putting the kibosh on that.
{{You certainly speak for many in rejecting Nanos' treatment of Rom 14-15.}}
Yes, and at length. {g} There are good internal contextual reasons for rejecting that treatment of Rom 14-15. I haven’t even covered all of them yet.
What you are not addressing, with your reply, are all the details I mentioned in my nice long essay concerning chapter 14, which argue against identifying the “weak” there as non-Christians (Judeans or Gentiles either one). I wish you had actually commented on my analysis, rather than commenting around it. {s} Most of your criticism attempts are not even against what I was talking about.
Off to get dinner! Have a good evening!
JRP
I agree with Loren (and Nanos) about Rom 14-15. Unbelieving Israel is in view here, not inter-Christian tension, and nothing poses problems for this view - least of all Rom 14:13.
Strangely enough, it's Nanos' view of the Corinthian situation that I'm having a hard time with. I need to go through the essay again.
Well, okay, I've gone into some pretty extensive detail on the topic twice now; so could you be more specific on why my analysis must be off base? To take one of many examples mentioned so far, could you be more specific on why "Therefore let us not judge one another anymore but rather determine this" is 'least of all' a problem for Paul referring here to unbelieving Israel?
Really, the easiest way to test the notion is to reprint chapters 14 and 15, putting "unbelieving Jew" and cognates into the relevant references; and then to do the same thing but putting or adding "Christian" into the relevant references. If both of those results make the same amount of good topical sense, then of course we'd have to go elsewhere to figure out which is being meant; whereas if one of those results makes significantly more good topical sense than the other, then that ought to be considered primary evidence toward proper meaning--wouldn't it?
JRP
Sorry Loren but you haven´t won me over yet to Nanos interpretation of the "weak" in Romans. I´ve read his book on Romans and other of his writings of the topic but he didn´t convince me enough to reject the standard interpretation. And I think Jason Pratt makes clearer than ever why the standard interpretation may still be right. Taken together I think Jason´s arguments are very strong and you will have to work a lot harder to overturn them.
But I am glad that you still haven´t bought Nanos argument that Paul was still basically a lawabiding, good jew. You and me agree that at the stage when Paul wrote Romans he really didn´t give a shit about the Law anymore
Antonio,
{{at the stage when Paul wrote Romans he really didn't give a shit about the Law anymore}}
That's probably far too strong a way to put it. Had Paul not given a shit about the Law anymore, he wouldn't have presented an analogue to the Law defending as well as accusing those 'who know not the Law' (i.e. the accursed in rabbinic thought, cf the complaint of the priests in the Synoptics during the Triumphant Entry) before the judgment seat of Christ in Rom 2.
I would say Paul clearly thinks he is restoring the Law to its proper context, as something given by the Spirit for an aid to righteousness (i.e. 'fair-togetherness'). I'm about 80% sure that it's Romans, in fact (in a hurry for food tonight, no time to look it up, but I know it's in one of the Paulian Epistles), from which we derive (though not by direct quote) that famous principle of Western civilization, about the difference between keeping the letter and the spirit of the law. Someone who is keeping to the spirit of the law will try to fulfill the law but will be lax about the law where applicable for charity's sake. Someone keeping merely to the letter of the law may be trying to break the spirit of the law, or bind the Spirit behind the law (if any) to behave in reaction to the Law. In that case, the Law becomes superior and binding to whatever or Whomever has provided the Law--and that's idolatry.
JRP
Antonio wrote:
Sorry Loren but you haven't won me over yet to Nanos interpretation of the "weak" in Romans. I've read his book on Romans and other of his writings of the topic but he didn´t convince me enough to reject the standard interpretation. And I think Jason Pratt makes clearer than ever why the standard interpretation may still be right. Taken together I think Jason's arguments are very strong and you will have to work a lot harder to overturn them.
Well, Antonio, if what I said here doesn't persuade you, nothing will. I don't buy for a moment that Paul intended the weak hear him tell the strong that they (the strong) should "put up with their failings". He was offensive, but not stupidly so as to undermine exactly what he's trying to accomplish in Rom 14-15 (on anyone's reading). The weak are weak because they don't accept Christ's resurrection (Rom 4:18-25). I have yet to hear anyone address the example of Abraham satisfactorily. And Rom 12-15 is unified by theme of Christian behavior with respect to the outside world, especially for following in turn Paul's conclusion to Rom 2-11 (chapter 11), Gentiles vis-a-vis unbelieving Israel. Not much harder I can work beyond this.
But I am glad that you still haven't bought Nanos argument that Paul was still basically a lawabiding, good jew. You and me agree that at the stage when Paul wrote Romans he really didn't give a shit about the Law anymore.
Actually, by the time of Romans he did care about the law, or at least enough to try making it "look good" in its uselessness. That's why he goes out of his way to insist it's holy, given by God for the best of reasons, and foiled by sin (against God's wishes), etc. It was in Galatians where Paul truly didn't "give a shit" about the Torah, as you put it. The rhetoric in Romans may be largely deceptive as a result, but Paul was at least having bad feelings -- and no doubt feeling dishonored from a bad reputation -- over the nasty things he'd said about the law before.
I enjoyed Jason Pratt's lengthy arguments, even if they're all wrong. :) He claims that "Paul's whole position hangs on insisting on a recognition that the weak are trying to honor Jesus," when in fact Paul says no such thing. The referent in Rom 14:18 clearly refers to the strong who abstain from eating out of concern for the weak (Rom 14:15-16).
Pratt claims that Rom 14:13 reflects intergroup language, but that doesn't necessarily follow. As with I Cor 8:11, "brother" doesn't refer to a fellow believer, but one who has potential to become such. (Pratt appears to have an easy enough time of accepting this for the case of I Corinthians.) Fictive kinship language usually applies to insiders, but certainly not always -- and not here, where Paul's idea of brotherhood is more all-encompassing (for which there is precedent in the ancient Mediterranean) and implicitly harks to the Christology of Rom 5:6.
So the "us" of Rom 14:13 just doesn't pose problems for Nanos' reading, as Pratt thinks it does. The "us" is rhetorical, and this is hardly a position uniquely held by Nanos. Mark Given, for instance, while maintaining the traditional view that the weak are Christian, rightly sees that Paul did not address Romans to the weak. Paul wasn't rhetorically obtuse. He was as careful as he could possibly be in crafting this letter. It was written to the strong -- those who largely agreed with him that the law was finished, but whose arrogance towards unbelieving Israel was causing his kinsmen to stumble (Rom 11:11-12, 14:13).
Loren,
Sorry for the delay; I’ve been busy elsewhere.
{{I enjoyed Jason Pratt's lengthy arguments, even if they're all wrong. :)}}
Well, let’s see an actual analysis of my arguments, then...
{{He claims that "Paul's whole position hangs on insisting on a recognition that the weak are trying to honor Jesus," when in fact Paul says no such thing.}}
To recap more fully, what I wrote was: “[Paul’s] whole position [in that place I was discussing with you] hangs on insisting on a recognition that these ‘weak’ are trying to honor Jesus, too, by their actions--and honoring Him in fashions reserved for God, of course. Non-Christian Jews certainly would not be doing that!”
This is in reference to your statement, “Paul is clear about this when he encourages the weak to abstain from meat and wine, and observe their holy days.”
Where does Paul encourage the weak to go ahead and and abstain from meat (eating only vegetables--and by the way, are you ever going to address how vegetarianism is supposed to be a critical hallmark of non-Christian Judaism!?! Is this done in your 2006 essay on “the weak” in Romans??) You seem to think, from your rebuttal to me, that it is in Rom 14:15-18:
{{in fact Paul says no such thing [i.e. about the weak trying to honor the Lord Jesus Christ]. The referent in Rom 14:18 clearly refers to the strong who abstain from eating out of concern for the weak (Rom 14:15-16).}}
This is very peculiar, because when I check over verses 15-18 (again), I do not find anything there about Paul encouraging the weak to go ahead and do things differently from the strong (as you agreed he was doing, and to which I was replying.) He is encouraging the strong not to bother the weak about eating and drinking, but rather to serve Christ (in a fashion approved by God and acceptable to men) through fair-togetherness (‘righteousness’) and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (For that matter, neither are those verses the place where Paul suggests the strong should rather become vegetarians themselves like the weak rather than compel the weak to do what the weak believe to be a sin. That’s down in verses 20-23.)
Neither, by the way, does 15-18 mention one of the topics I had been replying to and talking about, i.e. where you had written: “Paul is clear about this when he encourages the weak to abstain from meat and wine, and observe their holy days.” Nor do the subsequent verses through 23, for that matter. When you were talking about Paul encouraging the weak to observe their holy days, which portion of vv 15-23 did you find that in?
So, you had been talking about this (Paul encouraging the weak to go ahead and do things differently from the strong), and I had been talking about this (Paul encouraging the weak to go ahead and do things differently from the strong), with an addendum on my part about a characteristic of that place in Rom 14--and your rebuttal to me is to talk instead about a place where Paul is suggesting the strong should do things like the weak (in regard to diet anyway). Except that you still landed on the wrong verses concerning that particular topic, too! (Not even counting where you thought the holy days were supposed to be mentioned in that section.)
Uh...!!??
For what it’s worth, I certainly agree that the referent in verse 18 can apply to the strong, and that (per lead-ins from v15ff) he’s mainly talking to the strong there. Nor did I ever say otherwise, regarding vv 18-23.
Meanwhile, I thought that you and I had been talking about vv 1-9, when I was agreeing with you where you had written, “Paul is clear about this when he encourages the weak to abstain from meat and wine, and observe their holy days.” The main reason I thought you had been talking about those verses, is because in those verses Paul does encourage the weak to go ahead and abstain from meat and wine and observe their holy days. It didn’t occur to me that you were talking instead about another set of verses (or two sets??) where Paul does not encourage the weak to go ahead and abstain from meat and wine and observe their holy days, but where he does recommend that the strong stop riding their butts about this and even suggests that the strong do the same as the weak in order to keep from leading the weak into what the weak (currently) regard as a sin.
Anyway, back in the verses where Paul does in fact do what I thought we had been discussing, I once again observe that “he who eats (more than vegetables) does so for the Lord and gives thanks to God, and he who does not eat (more than vegetables) does so for the Lord and gives thanks to God; for not one of us lives for himself and not one dies for himself, for if we (those who eat only greens and those who also eat meat) live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ (the Lord) died and lived (again), that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.”
Would you please mind explaining (or pointing to where you have done so already), how those who eat only vegetables, in honor of the Lord Christ and giving thanks to God, are supposed to be non-Christian Jews?
{{Pratt claims that Rom 14:13 reflects intergroup language, but that doesn't necessarily follow.}}
I’m trying to figure out how “us” and “one another” (which, not-incidentally, were the words I emphasized in italics in my quote of verse 13) doesn’t necessarily indicate intergroup language.
Even on your attempted rebuttal, the whole point would be that the unbelieving Jews are being addressed by Paul in the epistle and included in the group (and are expected to listen to him and take his authoritative advice on this.)
What I was actually replying to in the place you quoted, though, was where you had written, “Paul is concerned that Gentile arrogance will cause Judean unbelievers to continue stumbling”, for which you had mentioned 14:13 as a prooftext for this position. When Paul says that “we” (“us”) should not judge “one another” or put stumbling blocks in a brother’s way, he’s including the weak and the strong within this group language; consequently, even if the unbelieving Jews are being included here, the admonition goes both ways. It isn’t only restricted to Gentile arrogance causing Judean unbelivers to continue stumbling.
{{As with I Cor 8:11, "brother" doesn't refer to a fellow believer, but one who has potential to become such.}}
There is certainly nothing in verse 13 (per se) which would indicate this. Nor, not-incidentally, does this give much help in explaining why the inclusive references “us” and “one another” do not necessarily reflect intergroup language, especially in context of the preceding verses (not least of which verse 12 where Paul states, “So then, each one of us shall give account of himself to God.”)
{{Pratt appears to have an easy enough time of accepting this for the case of I Corinthians.}}
That’s because the immediate contexts of 1 Cor 8 make it abundantly clear that there Paul is talking about non-Christian Gentiles being brothers under God (and also potential converts to Christianity who shouldn’t be given difficulties by Christians participating in what might easily be regarded as pagan religious ceremonies.) And not talking about non-Christian Jews, either.
Similarly, the immediate contexts of Rom 11 make it abundantly clear that Paul is talking about non-Christian Jews (not non-Christian Gentiles), with some words of admonishment to Gentile Chrisitans along the way.
Similarly, the contexts of Rom 4 make it abundantly clear that Paul there is talking about non-Chrisitan and Christian Jews and tensions involved with righteousness by faith.
Similarly: the immediate contexts of Rom 12-15 make it abundantly clear that most of the time he isn’t talking about non-Chrisitan Jews per se (though in a couple of places, such as Rom 13, they could be included tacitly along with relationships with other unbelivers, but explicitly Paul is talking about Gentile unbelivers especially in the government there.) Most of the time, specifically in Rom 12, 14 and 15, he’s talking about interChristian unity.
{{So the "us" of Rom 14:13 just doesn't pose problems for Nanos' reading, as Pratt thinks it does.}}
Based on no argument actually pertaining to the passage, though. The data itself is not to be considered the first evidence, and the immediate context is to be ignored. As far as I can make out, the only reason for this seems to be some unstated principle that if Paul is talking about x-group being “the weak” many chapters earlier, he absolutely must be talking about the same group near the end of the epistle. In which case I am still waiting with deep interest to hear how vegetarianism was supposed to be a critical identifier of non-Christian Judeaism. (Or maybe “eating only greens” was only supposed to be “rhetorical”?)
{{The "us" is rhetorical, and this is hardly a position uniquely held by Nanos.}}
Then other people aren’t being very competent about analyzing the passage, either. {g}
I understand that for your theory to work here the “us” and “one another” language has to be rhetorical--though then the inclusiveness would be just as easily dismissible as only being rhetorical, too, but let that slide. However, this position also requires the unity of purpose between the weak and the strong, in the verses preceding 13 (all the way back to verse 1), to also be rhetorical. And the language, and notional construction, simply is not going to bear this. (Or is Paul’s borrowing of Isaiah 45:23 also supposed to be only rhetorical? So much for any real hope, even for non-believers, expressed in it!)
{{Mark Given, for instance, while maintaining the traditional view that the weak are Christian, rightly sees that Paul did not address Romans to the weak.}} [Loren’s emphases]
I think that’s rather too simplistically putting it.
Paul addresses ‘Romans’ to his Roman congregation. Among this congregation are Jewish and Gentile converts. This congregation came from (and still has connections to) Jewish and Gentile non-Christian populations--Paul isn’t writing the letter to them (unless your theory of Rom 14 is true!--for it presupposes that the weak are reading the letter and will agree to abide by Paul’s authority on this matter), but Paul is naturally and logically concerned to be writing about them. At the same time he is concerned to be writing about (as well as actually to) his Jewish and Gentile convert-congregation in Rome.
{{Paul wasn't rhetorically obtuse. He was as careful as he could possibly be in crafting this letter.}}
Which is carefully addressed to the weak inclusively, as well as to the strong, in verses 1-13. Except that your theory requires Paul to be rhetorically obtuse there. {g}
JRP
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